Rules Question: Barging At The Start

johnsee · **Joined:** 24 Nov 2005, 11:57 **Posts:** 569

Quote:

A and X are approaching the starting line to start with A clear ahead and to leeward of X. X establishes an overlap to windward between A and the committee boat. At position 3 A luffs, hailing 'No room'. X responds to the luff, and in so doing makes contact with the committee boat. X protests. What should the call be?

Here's a quick situation taken directly from the ISAF call book. Without looking up the answer in the call book (blue book is ok), who is in the wrong, who is in the right... and why?

Pleb · **Joined:** 24 Nov 2005, 17:31 **Posts:** 35

X HAS to be in the wrong! He has no rights... and barges straight in there!

He's gone!

BEN · **Joined:** 29 May 2007, 18:34 **Posts:** 66

x is entitled to room on the commity boat

had a of closed the gate earlier than x would not be entitled to room

once x's bow was in between the commity boat and a than provided there is room for him to initally get into that position than he is right

alan · **Joined:** 03 Nov 2007, 06:24 **Posts:** 25

The way I read it Rules 18 (room at a mark) does not apply (18.1 (a)) so X is in the wrong. Rule 31 does apply (touching a mark) so x will have to do a penalty also.

It may depend whether Jupiter is in the 3rd quarter and it is a full moon though.

madeleine · **Posted:** 27 Apr 2008, 17:56

if a didnt close the gap, and x went in theres nothing wrong, a couldnt close the gap again, if a did, they would be in the wrong.

Matto · **Posted:** 27 Apr 2008, 18:03

Too late to close the gate at position 3 - penalize A for not giving X room to keep clear.

Skiffie@VSK-AUS · **Posted:** 28 Apr 2008, 11:11

But the question remains - was X entitled to room?

Matto · **Posted:** 28 Apr 2008, 12:42

If A had luffed at position 1 then there is no room and X must keep clear, however once they have allowed X to get between themselves and the stern of the committee boat A must then give them room to keep clear.

R3D · **Posted:** 29 Apr 2008, 11:26

X is entitled room to avoid the obstruction once overlaped and A can't luff X.

Skiffie@VSK-AUS · **Posted:** 29 Apr 2008, 17:11

Quote:

18 ROUNDING AND PASSING MARKS AND OBSTRUCTIONS
In rule 18, room is room for an inside boat to round or pass between an
outside boat and a mark or obstruction, including room to tack or gybe
when either is a normal part of the manoeuvre.

18.1 When This Rule Applies
Rule 18 applies when boats are about to round or pass a mark they are
required to leave on the same side, or an obstruction on the same side,
until they have passed it. However, it does not apply
(a) at a starting mark surrounded by navigable water or at its anchor line from the time the boats are approaching them to start until
they have passed them,
<snipped>

Definition of mark...

Quote:

Mark An object the sailing instructions require a boat to leave on a specified side, and a race committee boat surrounded by navigable water from which the starting or finishing line extends. An anchor line and objects attached temporarily or accidentally to a mark are not part of it.

Under 18.1(a) R18 does not apply and room is not required to be given.

I'd stop here, but I think even if R18 applied then X still doesn't have rights as far as I can determine...

Quote:

18.2 Giving Room; Keeping Clear
[s](a) OVERLAPPED – BASIC RULE
When boats are overlapped the outside boat shall give the inside
boat room to round or pass the mark or obstruction, and if the
inside boat has right of way the outside boat shall also keep clear.
Other parts of rule 18 contain exceptions to this rule.
(b) OVERLAPPED AT THE ZONE
If boats were overlapped before either of them reached the twolength
zone and the overlap is broken after one of them has reached
it, the boat that was on the outside shall continue to give the other
boat room. If the outside boat becomes clear astern or overlapped
inside the other boat, she is not entitled to room and shall keep clear.[/s]
(c) NOT OVERLAPPED AT THE ZONE
If a boat was clear ahead at the time she reached the two-length
zone, the boat clear astern shall thereafter keep clear. If the boat
clear astern becomes overlapped outside the other boat, she shall
also give the inside boat room. If the boat clear astern becomes
overlapped inside the other boat, she is not entitled to room. If the
boat that was clear ahead passes head to wind, rule 18.2(c) no
longer applies and remains inapplicable.

1. A was clear ahead at the zone as far as I can see in the diagram.
2. Rule 18.2c applies... underlined sentences apply.
3. A does not pass head to wind.

edit: Further...

Quote:

To the extent that a Section C rule conflicts with a rule in Section A or B, the Section C rule takes precedence.

Hence 16.1 does not apply.

X not entitled to room.

edit2: Johnsee or OG - how come the BBCode isn't working in this thread? at least it's not on my screen...

Matto · **Posted:** 29 Apr 2008, 17:47

Rule 18 does not apply as they are approaching the start line to start.

The only rules that can apply are 11 and 16.1.

yachtbouy · **Joined:** 11 May 2008, 21:22 **Posts:** 0

OK, the correct answer is whoever has the biggest balls. I have seen many in Xs position win starts without rights and leave the guys with rights with dirty air.

But in all seriousness, 2 boat mark rounding rule doesnt not apply at the start. At start time if I can push you into the start boat by being either close hauled or luffed and you are above me and between me and the start boat, you have no rights and are barging, in my case I will yell at you nice and early that you are barging and your boat name (so the start crew can hear) and force you out before it turns into an exchange of paint/glass.

If you have a rack of boats above, start above process very early ie 30 sec from start and push them all out.

I think this is more relevant to Yachts than dingys (little experience here)

If you want to win races, you have to win starts and you cant let X get away with this.

IMHO the key to a great start in A's position is to make sure that that everyone above you is crystal clear about their position and that you will not let them in, yell it as loud as you can, without pushing up to far and giving the guy below the option to push you up.

yachtbouy · **Joined:** 11 May 2008, 21:22 **Posts:** 0

Actually forgot to add, if A does let X in and X cant get out, then the all skippers must avoid a collision rule comes into play here, but A can and should protest X

Capn Mud · **Joined:** 17 Jun 2008, 18:11 **Posts:** 50

This one probably isnt barging because of the time when A closed the gap on X - if H luffed at 2 would've been OK as X is windward boat but in this position I think X has a good protest on A under Rule 16...

16 CHANGING COURSE
16.1 When a right-of-way boat changes course, she shall give the other
boat room to keep clear

Rule 18 does not apply as others have said.

Boat A - do your turns laddie

Rules Question: Barging At The Start

Who is online